Friendly Arguments #2: Which non-Clapham team will do best at EUCF? + Best Coach, Best Indoors O Strat

Until I get more people volunteering to edit/run these, this is the banner I'm using. No regrets.

Editor/Chair*: hazard

Contributors: GeorgeJorgensen, MJB, hogi
*Due to issues beyond our control, a few people have had to dive in and out of the chat at points. We’ve tried to fix it in editing, but this piece is going to be a bit more scattered/short than usual. Hopefully this means that there’s lots more to add as comments after the piece!

hazard

Welcome to friendly arguments! In this format, three talented and reasonable people fiercely debate some of the hottest issues in Ultimate. We’d love to hear your thoughts on who won, and different answers you’d have given.

On the table today:

Which non-Clapham team from EUCR-W will do best at EUCF?

Who is the best coach in UK/Ireland?

What is the best offensive strategy for indoors?

I’ll be chairing/judging today. I’ll be going on who gives the best argument in my opinion, rather than just the option I agree with most.

We’ll start by having our participants introduce themselves, so you know who they are and any bias they have in their arguments.

GeorgeJorgensen

Reasonable?

hazard

A subtle and hopeful hint

GeorgeJorgensen

Hi, I will be playing for PELT at Euros, played for FIRE at US Open, but mostly play for JR.

hogi

Hi, I’m Hogi. Played with Clapham and Herd this year. Perpetually broken, good behind a camera 🎥

MJB

I'm Matt, I play for Reading and I like to complain.

hazard

Good summary. Let's go.

Which non-Clapham team will do best at EUCF? 

Let’s have some opening arguments.

GeorgeJorgensen

Well, I feel I have to just go *discs out and say that it is going to be PELT.

*ed’s note: sports equipment changed for censorship reasons

MJB

I am going to argue for Chevron because I think they've had a great year. Also a couple of their European rivals are missing EUCF so that can only help. George picking PELT only strengthens my resolve.

hogi

I would back Iceni. I think they’ve had good results this year, even with a big roster turnover. Some big games haven’t gone their way but they were a very different team at Worlds than they were at Tom’s Tourney for example. I think their players have more experience winning games at Euros than some of the other qualifiers across the various divisions and that can’t be overlooked.

hazard

So, to summarise. George: PELT, MJB: Chevy, Hogi: Iceni.

GeorgeJorgensen

Ha it will come as little to no surprise that my argument is based almost entirely on how good it will be if I am right. High risk, high reward. Same reason I have been betting on Curve for promotion for years.

hazard

Who is missing MJB?

MJB

Tchac and Ragnarok both finished higher than Chev at EUCF 2017 (Rag beating them in the round of 16). So that's two fewer teams they'd have to beat.

I think Chevron are a slicker operation this year, and I think there will be top european teams that would be vulnerable to an ambitious Chevy. Buuuut I think could also have been said of other years too. I don't think they'll medal but I do think they'd beat PELT again.

GeorgeJorgensen

I think the PELT team that I know are precisely good at taking down the big names. Unpredictable, very energetic and really stubborn. I will couple with that with calling a lucky route to a medal.

I would personally love a Chevron vs PELT game. As I mentioned the last time we had a chat about this, I think they looked really good at Nationals.  In poor weather, in a situation PELT can play zone, I think almost any game is winnable. But the depth of Chevron's roster in flat conditions would take the edge over us.

Depth and overall fitness...

hogi

PELT are a funny one at times. They had a great Windmill last year for example but then lost to someone I wouldn’t have said they would lose to at Euros (FWD>>>)? I agree with George that on their day PELT can take down anyone so just depends how they show up.

GeorgeJorgensen

And just won Irish Nationals (if that adds any weight to my case)

hogi

The way both teams have played this year, Chev would beat PELT. This game already happened at Worlds remember, I think Chev seemed more athletic in that game and ran PELT ragged. Very different rosters, mind you, so maybe not as relevant 🤷

This is a hard one to be honest. Chevy have had a great season. Can’t take that away from them. Whatever it is, they haven’t been able to get the results against most other teams for a while at Euros. As a Clapham player, dare I say I’d like to see them do well this year? Yeah, why not, sure; they’ve worked hard and this year and they’re progressing and it’s good to see that paying off so best of luck to them.

MJB

Historically they have not been able to bring it in Europe but I think they are a slicker outfit this year.

Deciding between Iceni and Chev is tricky.

GeorgeJorgensen

Iceni is quite a bold call. Not Bristols?

hogi

Think it comes back to my point about knowing how to win at Euros. I think Bristol have had a great year. They’re athletic and making the plays at times they need to. But they don’t have the experience of winning at Euros and I would think a simple transition zone would snuff most of their initiations, especially when they play iso.

GeorgeJorgensen

I am such a sucker for the underdog though and wanting hunger to win out against experience. Same reason I want the Rockets to win the NBA title.

hogi

If you were up for a true underdog, George, you’d vote for Gravity here.

GeorgeJorgensen

Only way is down for that team.

hogi

That or Bleagles in a bigger surprise than John Cena returning and winning the Royal Rumble in 2008 👋

hazard

…Gravity aren’t going, I believe. Glasgow did get a wildcard spot, but all twelve team spots are filled on the site for the Women’s roster.

hogi

Oh yah... 2 bids. 🐀🐀

GeorgeJorgensen

There is nothing I like less as a JR player than to see Glasgow get a wildcard spot.

hogi

For the record... I did say Iceni or Chev in my first response to Harry, so I’ve just picked the spicier choice for arguments sake.

MJB

Ice have been dropping the odd game for a while, but they did seem to stop the bleeding at worlds and finish as highest UK women's team, and as Hogi says, losing talent matters less on a very deep team. I think my rationale behind my decision to back Chevy is mainly a narrative one; resurgent Chevron over Iceni stopping the decline. Additional factors include; Chev's sideline heckle game, my girlfriend playing for Nice Bristols, and wanting Chev to do well this year so it'll be even more glorious when Reading eventually tear down the last stronghold of the non-training, non-geo mono team.

GeorgeJorgensen

No love in-chat for Reading. Sure that goes against some of Hazard's rules...

hazard

If our captain doesn’t pick us then I’m happy to follow his lead.

hogi

Iceni are just a solid group. They lost some good talent, sure, but they have a lot of weapons in the likes of Jenna, Jackie, Maya, Coops, who have been doing it for years. They have other players taken on bigger roles this year then like Sophie Wharton and Randi Burns (two of Quartet’s finest at DGC2018) and, to stop name dropping, I just think they have an all round solid crew with good experience and good leaders.

Without seeing their Euros roster, I’m confident they can play their game and get Ws against anyone on their day. Especially when you consider some of the highest level games we’ve seen this year in Europe, eg the Windmill final which was a turnfest between Mainzelmädchen und Atlético.

hazard

Fact check: Jenna, Jackie, Maya and Coops all seem to be back for EUCF (or just rostered for fun).

Closing the argument there. I’m giving the first point to Hogi - I got some good specifics at the end and some good reasons why, even if he did nearly manage to argue in favour of Chev.

Best coach in UK/Ireland?

GeorgeJorgensen

I didn't realise we could win points.

Im repping midlands with - Brummie (Sion Scone).

I have only had limited experience of him coaching me but I think he has one of the best sports minds and a good online blog. He never gives it any of this 'proper ultimate' rubbish and just focuses on points that will help teams win. I know there was some controversy around how he was coaching the U24s recently but all the negative stuff I kind of approve of. "He was quite aggressive about some things"; yeah damn right. "He didn't always listen to player opinions"; why would he, he knows better than you...

hogi

I heard some grumblings too about negative comments coming from the sideline quite often 😬. I can be fiery at the best of times myself but you gain absolutely nothing by effectively telling a player “you messed up” after they mess up. It would take a stupid or self centred player to not realise and admit their error.

GeorgeJorgensen

I also love a good bit of sideline shade throwing.

hogi

Good thing you didn’t vote for yourself then 😂

GeorgeJorgensen

Ha, I don't think any of my team would rightly let me call myself a coach. Do not think I can do justice to Brummie's CV. Certainly not in comparison there.

hogi

I’m going with Ian French, AKA Frenchi. He is just a really good coach. He’s currently coaching Gravity and he’s the Ireland Women’s coach for EUC next year. His history as a coach speaks for itself really:

Uni - he experienced good success with Trinity nearing the end of their Men’s team’s streak on the title, he brought UCD to a number of Men’s finals including a Nats title in 2014, and two mixed Nats titles in 2012 and 2014.

Until very recently he was a long term Jabba player coach, he got them to multiple Mixed Nats titles, a 2013 Men’s final and a Men’s title in 2015. He’s coached the Jabba women’s team to multiple national titles too. With the Irish Mixed team in 2015, he coached the team to a 28-2 season and European silver medals, winning Windmill and Dublin’s Golden Cup that year too. Most recently he’s been Gravity Women’s coach as they won back-to-back Women’s Nats titles and a third place finish at UK Nats 2018.

So yeah, that’s his CV and I’ve probably missed some stuff too.

hazard

For those who don’t have anything else to do today, here’s a lot of reading from Brummie (Subscription only).

hogi

I’m sure all the Irish readers are thinking Leo Yoshida should be in the conversation. I’d agree with that too but I think Ian has been around more consistently for the last while so I’ll stick with him even if Leo has a crazy good resumé too.

hazard

I’ll add in the quick one - Brummie coached GB Men to silver in 2012. And the World Games team in 2013.

hogi

Coached the GB Men to silver in 2011 at Euros too. Some saw it as a mistake for him to play the year after when it was apparent that he brought a lot of value as a non-playing coach. Their opinions, not mine. I can see the appeal of playing for sure. I think the now move to having more non player coaches is good for the sport and there were definitely fewer in 2012 (at least at club level as I know a good few countries had them in Sakai). Tough call for Brummie to make I’d say, but can see the appeal as I said.

GeorgeJorgensen

I'd like to add shade throwing grumbly sideline to the positives column. If I may...

Also, playing against Brummie he gave EMO a hard time for disregarding our 4-1-2 iso as "stupid" instead of adjusting their play. After this dressing down they turned the game around completely and spanked us. I think that might have been the first ever Fog Lane.

hogi

I think Ian’s line calling and player management are v. good. You always know where you stand with him too. He’s great to discuss the game with and spend extra time pre/post training working on small fixes.

Case in point, at EUC in 2015, we (Ireland Mixed) went into the week with 9 healthy players as Rob Holland broke his wrist/arm pre tournament, then on Day 1 Brían Henderson dislocated his shoulder... then on Day 3 Ian Fox torn ankle ligaments (I think?). So we’re down to 7 healthy blokes for another 4 days and he got us to the final by managing game time and picking the right tactics for us to utilise our women’s superior ability and to save our guys legs. This included him playing a few points here or there (thankfully we had registered him as a player), but largely he didn’t really put a foot wrong that week (until he did in the warm-up of the final and got injured).

GeorgeJorgensen

I have never liked warm ups.

hazard

So, for Brummie you’re saying he should have stopped being a playing coach earlier, and Frenchy you’re saying he’s good because he re-became a playing coach? If I were to compose a very sketchy strawman, that is.

hogi

Brummie didn’t NEED to play. GB had a big ol’ squad. Frenchi had a squad of 7 guys to play Mixed for 4-5 days so it made sense to play some points to save the legs of his players

hazard

Sweet. Point to George, since Brummie can pick enough players for a tournament then. Although I did really like Hogi’s argument, and I may be over-correcting for my personal preference for coaching being more interactive/discursive.

MJB

I don't have much experience of playing under any of the big coaching names in the UK, and certainly none for Ireland. The reputations of Megan Hurst, Callum Spiers & Chesca Weddell come to mind, been told James Freeman was good, and I've heard mixed reviews about Brummie - although he's certainly got the best CV.

I'll contribute instead a little grumble about the state of coaching in the UK - it sucks. I'm only really interested in reading what US coaches have to say because there's actual initiative, creativity and nuance there. Generally it feels like we UK coaches all teach the same things, and it's certainly not because we've got all the right answers and best practices. We have a dearth of coaches in top level ultimate; the combo of having so few, and ones we do have often being player-captain-coaches, is stunting real innovation because we're too busy trying to create cookie-cutter players that know just enough to play on our teams.

More club teams need coaches and assistant coaches, and those club teams need to appreciate them. More university teams need to ask for and appoint coaches. If you were good at uni there's a very good chance you ran or facilitated some drills, a training or helped plan a season, maybe you captained and called lines or whatever. Anyone can do those, that's just admin. Find a club and coach! or find a club that has a coach and help out! Raising the average ultimate literacy in the UK scene will help a great deal.

We need to build a coaching culture in our sport before we can get to all the really interesting strategy and tactics; half of that is getting more coaches more often, and the other half is getting ultimate players to be more coachable (which is another separate and longer grumble).

hazard

Alright, that might be a longer grumble we publish another time. Let’s close now.

What is the best indoors offence?

hogi

So long as the other team was adamant about playing person D, 2-1-2 iso. Easily messed up by a zone.

hazard

We’re assuming the other team is playing properly, so no indoor zones. That’s essentially like giving up. Come at me indoor fans.

hogi

Ballincollig play a clean as hell 2-1-2, see Irish Nats final 2017 vs Blade.

GeorgeJorgensen

I think I would play my offense in both situations. 3-1-1. For a few reasons.

hogi

Surely having 3 at the back is cloggy AF*?

*ed’s note: as frick

GeorgeJorgensen

Firstly, we all know that you can win by just putting it to your big lads. With a good thrower you can basically get 2 options for a break score. If they mark out your 'iso' you can throw it straight to the endzone. It can sometimes feel a little tight but you so so rarely have to move it between you.

hogi

I’d be playing a 1-2-2 against an iso in any case.

GeorgeJorgensen

The other reason I like 3-1-1 is it stops quick scores dead in their tracks. Because 3 people should be between anyone and the endzone in the case of a turnover.

3-1-1 also provides the opportunity to completely embarrass teams that poach it wrong. In a mixed scenario I find that if you put a lady in the endzone, people will leave them, and then get scored on quickly. I just can't turn down an offense that makes other teams feel bad about themselves.

MJB

The humble Ho stack was good enough for World Men’s Indoor Champions 2018, Revolver. (Also indoors blows)

hazard

Ok. Ending it now. Making the call, but I’ll add for our readers that I decided that just having a tall person to chuck it to didn’t technically count as a tactic, due to not being specific enough. This despite broad agreement in our chat that it was one of the best tactics.

Final snap decision - points to George for final one. I’ve actually played that stack an made that exact shot, and I can confirm it is immensely satisfying. Although I’d love to see a 3-1-1 vs 2-1-2. Also, bonus points to everyone for not picking sidestack.

This closes out our piece. As said at the start, I think there’s a lot more discussion to be had on all of these points, so I’d love to read any comments you all have on reddit/facebook/blogger. What arguments would you have made? Did I judge any of these incorrectly? If you enjoy these pieces and would like to be involved in one in future, do drop us a line.