Friendly Arguments #2: Which non-Clapham team will do best at EUCF? + Best Coach, Best Indoors O Strat

Until I get more people volunteering to edit/run these, this is the banner I'm using. No regrets.

Editor/Chair*: hazard

Contributors: GeorgeJorgensen, MJB, hogi
*Due to issues beyond our control, a few people have had to dive in and out of the chat at points. We’ve tried to fix it in editing, but this piece is going to be a bit more scattered/short than usual. Hopefully this means that there’s lots more to add as comments after the piece!

hazard

Welcome to friendly arguments! In this format, three talented and reasonable people fiercely debate some of the hottest issues in Ultimate. We’d love to hear your thoughts on who won, and different answers you’d have given.

On the table today:

Which non-Clapham team from EUCR-W will do best at EUCF?

Who is the best coach in UK/Ireland?

What is the best offensive strategy for indoors?

I’ll be chairing/judging today. I’ll be going on who gives the best argument in my opinion, rather than just the option I agree with most.

We’ll start by having our participants introduce themselves, so you know who they are and any bias they have in their arguments.

GeorgeJorgensen

Reasonable?

hazard

A subtle and hopeful hint

GeorgeJorgensen

Hi, I will be playing for PELT at Euros, played for FIRE at US Open, but mostly play for JR.

hogi

Hi, I’m Hogi. Played with Clapham and Herd this year. Perpetually broken, good behind a camera 🎥

MJB

I'm Matt, I play for Reading and I like to complain.

hazard

Good summary. Let's go.

Which non-Clapham team will do best at EUCF? 

Let’s have some opening arguments.

GeorgeJorgensen

Well, I feel I have to just go *discs out and say that it is going to be PELT.

*ed’s note: sports equipment changed for censorship reasons

MJB

I am going to argue for Chevron because I think they've had a great year. Also a couple of their European rivals are missing EUCF so that can only help. George picking PELT only strengthens my resolve.

hogi

I would back Iceni. I think they’ve had good results this year, even with a big roster turnover. Some big games haven’t gone their way but they were a very different team at Worlds than they were at Tom’s Tourney for example. I think their players have more experience winning games at Euros than some of the other qualifiers across the various divisions and that can’t be overlooked.

hazard

So, to summarise. George: PELT, MJB: Chevy, Hogi: Iceni.

GeorgeJorgensen

Ha it will come as little to no surprise that my argument is based almost entirely on how good it will be if I am right. High risk, high reward. Same reason I have been betting on Curve for promotion for years.

hazard

Who is missing MJB?

MJB

Tchac and Ragnarok both finished higher than Chev at EUCF 2017 (Rag beating them in the round of 16). So that's two fewer teams they'd have to beat.

I think Chevron are a slicker operation this year, and I think there will be top european teams that would be vulnerable to an ambitious Chevy. Buuuut I think could also have been said of other years too. I don't think they'll medal but I do think they'd beat PELT again.

GeorgeJorgensen

I think the PELT team that I know are precisely good at taking down the big names. Unpredictable, very energetic and really stubborn. I will couple with that with calling a lucky route to a medal.

I would personally love a Chevron vs PELT game. As I mentioned the last time we had a chat about this, I think they looked really good at Nationals.  In poor weather, in a situation PELT can play zone, I think almost any game is winnable. But the depth of Chevron's roster in flat conditions would take the edge over us.

Depth and overall fitness...

hogi

PELT are a funny one at times. They had a great Windmill last year for example but then lost to someone I wouldn’t have said they would lose to at Euros (FWD>>>)? I agree with George that on their day PELT can take down anyone so just depends how they show up.

GeorgeJorgensen

And just won Irish Nationals (if that adds any weight to my case)

hogi

The way both teams have played this year, Chev would beat PELT. This game already happened at Worlds remember, I think Chev seemed more athletic in that game and ran PELT ragged. Very different rosters, mind you, so maybe not as relevant 🤷

This is a hard one to be honest. Chevy have had a great season. Can’t take that away from them. Whatever it is, they haven’t been able to get the results against most other teams for a while at Euros. As a Clapham player, dare I say I’d like to see them do well this year? Yeah, why not, sure; they’ve worked hard and this year and they’re progressing and it’s good to see that paying off so best of luck to them.

MJB

Historically they have not been able to bring it in Europe but I think they are a slicker outfit this year.

Deciding between Iceni and Chev is tricky.

GeorgeJorgensen

Iceni is quite a bold call. Not Bristols?

hogi

Think it comes back to my point about knowing how to win at Euros. I think Bristol have had a great year. They’re athletic and making the plays at times they need to. But they don’t have the experience of winning at Euros and I would think a simple transition zone would snuff most of their initiations, especially when they play iso.

GeorgeJorgensen

I am such a sucker for the underdog though and wanting hunger to win out against experience. Same reason I want the Rockets to win the NBA title.

hogi

If you were up for a true underdog, George, you’d vote for Gravity here.

GeorgeJorgensen

Only way is down for that team.

hogi

That or Bleagles in a bigger surprise than John Cena returning and winning the Royal Rumble in 2008 👋

hazard

…Gravity aren’t going, I believe. Glasgow did get a wildcard spot, but all twelve team spots are filled on the site for the Women’s roster.

hogi

Oh yah... 2 bids. 🐀🐀

GeorgeJorgensen

There is nothing I like less as a JR player than to see Glasgow get a wildcard spot.

hogi

For the record... I did say Iceni or Chev in my first response to Harry, so I’ve just picked the spicier choice for arguments sake.

MJB

Ice have been dropping the odd game for a while, but they did seem to stop the bleeding at worlds and finish as highest UK women's team, and as Hogi says, losing talent matters less on a very deep team. I think my rationale behind my decision to back Chevy is mainly a narrative one; resurgent Chevron over Iceni stopping the decline. Additional factors include; Chev's sideline heckle game, my girlfriend playing for Nice Bristols, and wanting Chev to do well this year so it'll be even more glorious when Reading eventually tear down the last stronghold of the non-training, non-geo mono team.

GeorgeJorgensen

No love in-chat for Reading. Sure that goes against some of Hazard's rules...

hazard

If our captain doesn’t pick us then I’m happy to follow his lead.

hogi

Iceni are just a solid group. They lost some good talent, sure, but they have a lot of weapons in the likes of Jenna, Jackie, Maya, Coops, who have been doing it for years. They have other players taken on bigger roles this year then like Sophie Wharton and Randi Burns (two of Quartet’s finest at DGC2018) and, to stop name dropping, I just think they have an all round solid crew with good experience and good leaders.

Without seeing their Euros roster, I’m confident they can play their game and get Ws against anyone on their day. Especially when you consider some of the highest level games we’ve seen this year in Europe, eg the Windmill final which was a turnfest between Mainzelmädchen und Atlético.

hazard

Fact check: Jenna, Jackie, Maya and Coops all seem to be back for EUCF (or just rostered for fun).

Closing the argument there. I’m giving the first point to Hogi - I got some good specifics at the end and some good reasons why, even if he did nearly manage to argue in favour of Chev.

Best coach in UK/Ireland?

GeorgeJorgensen

I didn't realise we could win points.

Im repping midlands with - Brummie (Sion Scone).

I have only had limited experience of him coaching me but I think he has one of the best sports minds and a good online blog. He never gives it any of this 'proper ultimate' rubbish and just focuses on points that will help teams win. I know there was some controversy around how he was coaching the U24s recently but all the negative stuff I kind of approve of. "He was quite aggressive about some things"; yeah damn right. "He didn't always listen to player opinions"; why would he, he knows better than you...

hogi

I heard some grumblings too about negative comments coming from the sideline quite often 😬. I can be fiery at the best of times myself but you gain absolutely nothing by effectively telling a player “you messed up” after they mess up. It would take a stupid or self centred player to not realise and admit their error.

GeorgeJorgensen

I also love a good bit of sideline shade throwing.

hogi

Good thing you didn’t vote for yourself then 😂

GeorgeJorgensen

Ha, I don't think any of my team would rightly let me call myself a coach. Do not think I can do justice to Brummie's CV. Certainly not in comparison there.

hogi

I’m going with Ian French, AKA Frenchi. He is just a really good coach. He’s currently coaching Gravity and he’s the Ireland Women’s coach for EUC next year. His history as a coach speaks for itself really:

Uni - he experienced good success with Trinity nearing the end of their Men’s team’s streak on the title, he brought UCD to a number of Men’s finals including a Nats title in 2014, and two mixed Nats titles in 2012 and 2014.

Until very recently he was a long term Jabba player coach, he got them to multiple Mixed Nats titles, a 2013 Men’s final and a Men’s title in 2015. He’s coached the Jabba women’s team to multiple national titles too. With the Irish Mixed team in 2015, he coached the team to a 28-2 season and European silver medals, winning Windmill and Dublin’s Golden Cup that year too. Most recently he’s been Gravity Women’s coach as they won back-to-back Women’s Nats titles and a third place finish at UK Nats 2018.

So yeah, that’s his CV and I’ve probably missed some stuff too.

hazard

For those who don’t have anything else to do today, here’s a lot of reading from Brummie (Subscription only).

hogi

I’m sure all the Irish readers are thinking Leo Yoshida should be in the conversation. I’d agree with that too but I think Ian has been around more consistently for the last while so I’ll stick with him even if Leo has a crazy good resumé too.

hazard

I’ll add in the quick one - Brummie coached GB Men to silver in 2012. And the World Games team in 2013.

hogi

Coached the GB Men to silver in 2011 at Euros too. Some saw it as a mistake for him to play the year after when it was apparent that he brought a lot of value as a non-playing coach. Their opinions, not mine. I can see the appeal of playing for sure. I think the now move to having more non player coaches is good for the sport and there were definitely fewer in 2012 (at least at club level as I know a good few countries had them in Sakai). Tough call for Brummie to make I’d say, but can see the appeal as I said.

GeorgeJorgensen

I'd like to add shade throwing grumbly sideline to the positives column. If I may...

Also, playing against Brummie he gave EMO a hard time for disregarding our 4-1-2 iso as "stupid" instead of adjusting their play. After this dressing down they turned the game around completely and spanked us. I think that might have been the first ever Fog Lane.

hogi

I think Ian’s line calling and player management are v. good. You always know where you stand with him too. He’s great to discuss the game with and spend extra time pre/post training working on small fixes.

Case in point, at EUC in 2015, we (Ireland Mixed) went into the week with 9 healthy players as Rob Holland broke his wrist/arm pre tournament, then on Day 1 Brían Henderson dislocated his shoulder... then on Day 3 Ian Fox torn ankle ligaments (I think?). So we’re down to 7 healthy blokes for another 4 days and he got us to the final by managing game time and picking the right tactics for us to utilise our women’s superior ability and to save our guys legs. This included him playing a few points here or there (thankfully we had registered him as a player), but largely he didn’t really put a foot wrong that week (until he did in the warm-up of the final and got injured).

GeorgeJorgensen

I have never liked warm ups.

hazard

So, for Brummie you’re saying he should have stopped being a playing coach earlier, and Frenchy you’re saying he’s good because he re-became a playing coach? If I were to compose a very sketchy strawman, that is.

hogi

Brummie didn’t NEED to play. GB had a big ol’ squad. Frenchi had a squad of 7 guys to play Mixed for 4-5 days so it made sense to play some points to save the legs of his players

hazard

Sweet. Point to George, since Brummie can pick enough players for a tournament then. Although I did really like Hogi’s argument, and I may be over-correcting for my personal preference for coaching being more interactive/discursive.

MJB

I don't have much experience of playing under any of the big coaching names in the UK, and certainly none for Ireland. The reputations of Megan Hurst, Callum Spiers & Chesca Weddell come to mind, been told James Freeman was good, and I've heard mixed reviews about Brummie - although he's certainly got the best CV.

I'll contribute instead a little grumble about the state of coaching in the UK - it sucks. I'm only really interested in reading what US coaches have to say because there's actual initiative, creativity and nuance there. Generally it feels like we UK coaches all teach the same things, and it's certainly not because we've got all the right answers and best practices. We have a dearth of coaches in top level ultimate; the combo of having so few, and ones we do have often being player-captain-coaches, is stunting real innovation because we're too busy trying to create cookie-cutter players that know just enough to play on our teams.

More club teams need coaches and assistant coaches, and those club teams need to appreciate them. More university teams need to ask for and appoint coaches. If you were good at uni there's a very good chance you ran or facilitated some drills, a training or helped plan a season, maybe you captained and called lines or whatever. Anyone can do those, that's just admin. Find a club and coach! or find a club that has a coach and help out! Raising the average ultimate literacy in the UK scene will help a great deal.

We need to build a coaching culture in our sport before we can get to all the really interesting strategy and tactics; half of that is getting more coaches more often, and the other half is getting ultimate players to be more coachable (which is another separate and longer grumble).

hazard

Alright, that might be a longer grumble we publish another time. Let’s close now.

What is the best indoors offence?

hogi

So long as the other team was adamant about playing person D, 2-1-2 iso. Easily messed up by a zone.

hazard

We’re assuming the other team is playing properly, so no indoor zones. That’s essentially like giving up. Come at me indoor fans.

hogi

Ballincollig play a clean as hell 2-1-2, see Irish Nats final 2017 vs Blade.

GeorgeJorgensen

I think I would play my offense in both situations. 3-1-1. For a few reasons.

hogi

Surely having 3 at the back is cloggy AF*?

*ed’s note: as frick

GeorgeJorgensen

Firstly, we all know that you can win by just putting it to your big lads. With a good thrower you can basically get 2 options for a break score. If they mark out your 'iso' you can throw it straight to the endzone. It can sometimes feel a little tight but you so so rarely have to move it between you.

hogi

I’d be playing a 1-2-2 against an iso in any case.

GeorgeJorgensen

The other reason I like 3-1-1 is it stops quick scores dead in their tracks. Because 3 people should be between anyone and the endzone in the case of a turnover.

3-1-1 also provides the opportunity to completely embarrass teams that poach it wrong. In a mixed scenario I find that if you put a lady in the endzone, people will leave them, and then get scored on quickly. I just can't turn down an offense that makes other teams feel bad about themselves.

MJB

The humble Ho stack was good enough for World Men’s Indoor Champions 2018, Revolver. (Also indoors blows)

hazard

Ok. Ending it now. Making the call, but I’ll add for our readers that I decided that just having a tall person to chuck it to didn’t technically count as a tactic, due to not being specific enough. This despite broad agreement in our chat that it was one of the best tactics.

Final snap decision - points to George for final one. I’ve actually played that stack an made that exact shot, and I can confirm it is immensely satisfying. Although I’d love to see a 3-1-1 vs 2-1-2. Also, bonus points to everyone for not picking sidestack.

This closes out our piece. As said at the start, I think there’s a lot more discussion to be had on all of these points, so I’d love to read any comments you all have on reddit/facebook/blogger. What arguments would you have made? Did I judge any of these incorrectly? If you enjoy these pieces and would like to be involved in one in future, do drop us a line.

Friendly Arguments #1: In which division will the UK do best at WUCC? + Breakout Mixed player, Gender Equity

Editors: ali/hazard

hazard

Hello and welcome to a new type of article here on The Cutting Lane Floor: Friendly Arguments. We have some very talented players and reasonably talented debaters here to try to convince you their argument is the correct one.

We'll have three initial longform rounds. The debaters all got these questions in advance, and have prepared their points. We'll be spending the majority of this article discussing these points.

After that, we have a speed round. I'll announce the question, they'll quickly try to claim the best answer, and then have a short time to try to argue it.

At the end of each round, we'll gather everyone up. I'll say what I liked, what I didn't like, and then give some points. Our fact checker will also make any corrections, and cover a few points our debaters may have missed. Your job as readers is to make your own conclusions, claim I'm biased in the comments, and argue for whichever debater you happen to know best.

All clear?

First up, let's introduce the people arguing today! Go ahead guys.

geegee

I’m Geegee. I’ve been playing for 3 and a half years, mostly with Surrey and more recently GB U24 Mixed. I’m playing with Reading at WUCC (super pumped), and I will also be commentating out in Cincinnati!

nads

Helllooo I’m Nads and I’ve been playing for around 6/7 years, I prefer not to count. I played for Nice Bristols during WUCC 2014 and I’m playing for Reading Ultimate for this cycle.  I apologise for my debating in advance.

Axel

Heya I'm Axel. I started 5 years ago with Glasgow Uni and have played with the club team since then as well as GB U24 Open. I'll be playing for GUX at WUCC!

ali

Hi everyone, I’m Ali Thomas of UKU Sofa Sideline fame. I’m an NQT (Nearly Qualified Teacher) and I’m here as a real time fact checker. If our debaters make any claims that are unsubstantiated or just plain wrong, I will inform them in a non-aggressive and constructive way that positively impacts our learning journeys.

hazard

Excellent! And I will be your chair. I've played a fair bit in Mixed and Open, and am also going to WUCC with Reading Mixed. I'll be keeping people in line, watching timings, and judging which arguments I think are the best. I'm going to try to be honest and explain my reasoning, so the outcomes don't seem random.

Well, with three WUCC players, it only seemed natural to start with a WUCC debate.

What I want you to decide on is:

In which division of WUCC will the UK perform best overall (e.g. Mixed, Open, Women’s)?

Opening statements please.

Axel

So personally I think Open will probably do the best. I'll start by saying why they are strong cos that's probably nicer than arguing why the others will be weaker.

So Clapham need no introductions. But for comparison's sake: longstanding force in the UK, not many rookies, strong recruitment, Euro champions many times. Yeah they are good. Chevron have looked strong going in this year. A couple of games at Fog Lane with perfect O and a lot of great defenders on that team. They looks stronger than previous years, though we say that a lot, but I think they'll put in a good placing at Worlds. Devon I don't know too much about for this year coming, I guess we will see more at tour, but they'll give anyone a gritty game no matter whether they are a top seed or a 16th seed, so expect lots of close results. I back them to get on the right side of most of them.

That's why Open will do the best.

Why the others won't?  Judging on the biggest tourney each year (EUCF) one Mixed team almost seems to shit out on the big stage. Hopefully it doesn't happen at WUCC, the teams look strong, but who knows. Reading will probably turn up as per though. Women's, I don't see the strength in depth being as strong as in the Open division, not as strong in EUCF (can't match Clapham’s winning streak); the dominance doesn't seem to be there on the continental scale, but obviously there are two powerhouse teams for sure. Let's see what they can do.

nads

It has to be Women’s, not that I’m biased by the teams I’ve played for in the past. I’ve seen how far the Women’s division has grown in the past 4 years in the UK and I know a lot of the girls rostered on the teams going to Worlds. Results at Tom’s Tourney were incredibly positive for all 3 teams. Iceni 2nd, SYC 4th and Nice Bristols 9th (losing to both SYC and Netherlands U20s in sudden death). Plus the girls on all teams are locally based to their clubs giving them the time to train together at least once or more a week. Speaking from a team I know very well and love (will definitely be fangirling them at WUCC) is Nice Bristols! They have experience retaining lots of the ladies from the 2014 cycle as well as some talented ladies from WU24s on top of  keeping their development heads on too! Judging by how strong I know this team will be, I think SYC and Iceni will be an equal force to match. I’m excited!

geegee

The UK Mixed scene has blossomed over the past few years to become a strongly competitive division. Where many players had previously committed to Women’s or Open, we have seen a transition from a multitude of top-level players competing in the Mixed division, whether it is for WUCC or National events. For example, the formation of Deep Space in London has drawn in players from the other two divisions e.g. Ben Weddell ex-Chevron, Harry Slinger-Thompson ex-Fire, Alex Meixner ex-Iceni, Mara Alperin ex-Iceni. Whilst Deep Space are not attending WUCC it gives an example for how many superb athletes are taking the Mixed division seriously. Black Eagles have dominated in the UK Ultimate scene over 2017 and 2018, even with split squads, and they could cause some damage on an international scale from sheer athleticism and throwing prowess. Reading have established themselves in the European game for years, winning championship titles at EUCF (2017 saw them finishing third with the highest finishing UK squad). With these titles under our Mixed belt, not even scratching the surface on SMOG and Glasgow, the UK has a good fight!

hazard

Ok. Some good initial arguments. Snap judgement - I think Axel currently has the strongest arguments in favour, so let's start by debating Open. He also got some good jabs in on the others initially, which I liked. Good arguments from both the others though. I liked Nads pointing out training perspectives and Geegee's use of Mixed within the UK beyond the WUCC teams.

nads

I can’t deny that Clapham are an incredibly strong team and yes are likely to match the results of 2014, they do seem untouchable on the UK and European front. Not that I don’t think Devon and Chevron are strong teams but if you look at past squads and performances of both Devon and Chevron again European teams they just can’t compete at the same level than Clapham can and I think we’ll see that disparity at WUCC. Importantly, Clapham train weekly, the other two don’t.

geegee

The UK undeniably has strength and has further developed in the run up to WUCC. However we don’t know how they will perform against teams outside of Europe. Clapham attended US Open Club Championships last year and finished 8th, which is a fantastic performance against some of the best US teams - is that going to be enough to perform at WUCC? Devon and Chevron have boosted their squads even compared to last year, so they could give Clapham a run for their money. On an international stage, there are teams that just seem to have a slight upper hand. I agree with Nads on the training consistency, it is vital on further pushing the squad.

Axel

I'm not arguing for Clapham to go and win WUCC, but I think they are likely to place highest from any UK team in their division. An 8th place finish at US Open with about as many wins and losses shows they can mix it with the best in the world, which should be enough to beat almost any team from any other country. I think we may see a disparity between Clapham and the other two, alternatively we may see a disparity between the top two and Devon. Who knows how strong Chevron will be come WUCC. But I'm sure those two will have much more depth than Devon and that will carry them further in the tournament.

Not sure there were any other major disagreements...

nads

I think Devon could be dark horses, they performed well at Tom’s and at Fog Lane with a split squad. I do think they’ll be interesting to watch.

Axel

All the better for my prediction mwahaha.

geegee

Chevron have already scrimmaged against the Devon WUCC squad, and came out on top at Fog Lane and Tom’s Tourney. Chev have expanded their roster and trained a significant amount more than previous years so they could give Clapham a scare. But Devon could also still surprise us. This is all too difficult to predict.

Axel

So you are saying Chev may be as strong as Clapham and Devon will surprise? I'm now happy with the division I chose!

geegee

Potentially, if there were to be a year for Chev to overtake Clapham it feels like it would be this year. Devon will perform better than expected. However, this does not mean better WUCC results because there are other teams there unfortunately (they kind of get in the way).

nads

I think on the international stage, upsets are likely. Clapham have that experience as Geegee pointed out. The others: we’ll see which teams come their way.

Axel

I think we say that a lot about Chev, but maybe! Anyways I stand by my prediction and good luck to them all!

Axel

I think the Women's division has condensed their talent into fewer squads than before, with Bristols hoarding a lot of young talent on the roster. Iceni, like Clapham, will most likely be the strongest UK team in their division given their experience. I probably don't know enough about SYC to speculate accurately. But wild speculation anyway - they are weaker than before? They'll come third of UK women's teams? No idea how they'll do at WUCC. Came 8th at EUCF so maybe I'm completely wrong.

nads

I disagree, if anything, the SYC squad has gotten stronger over the past few years, they have retained players and have built strong connections. They had a solid performance at Windmill in 2017 and Tom’s in 2018 showing they are a team to be reckoned with.

geegee

Women’s could go anywhere at this rate and it’s very difficult to call. But I have to agree with Axel - there is not as much depth comparatively, but not to Open, to other international Women’s teams. The UK boasts some incredible female athletes from all three of our representing teams, but they are all so different that it is difficult to call year to year who will perform best. SYC pride themselves on their grit and unity as a squad. Iceni have experience and raw athleticism to give them strength. Nice Bristols have a lot of youth and guts. On an international level, they have all often fallen short to teams that are just more well-rounded. I am really excited to see all of them face off against the US teams though!

Axel

You are probably right about SYC, like I said, I was just wildly commenting. However I think the strength of the teams isn't as strong relatively as Open on the international level. Due to less depth, less experience and less reputation. Trading off reputation can be important in long slogging games and points. Clapham have that to their advantage over any UK team.

nads

I do think there has been a shift in Women’s ultimate within the last year or so. The amount of teams entering Women’s Tour (28) is testament to that. I’m excited to see teams like Swift, SMOG, Reading and Hydra presenting a real threat to the 3 WUCC teams, helping to push their development in the last 6 weeks before Worlds.

geegee

I completely agree with Nads on that point, tour is going to be a great kick off to their season. It is often limiting when the top teams tend to play the same players every time and it becomes predictable. Maybe that’s why we’re seeing some split squads!

nads

I do have to agree with Geegee that the Mixed scene in the UK is so strong right now! All four teams are well rounded, but perhaps Black Eagles and Reading have the edge when it comes to seasoned experience against European teams. Women and Open have the benefit of having experienced international competition at WUCC before (NB, Iceni, Chevy and Clapham), whereas only BE have been to WUCC previously. This could be a disadvantage to the Mixed teams, or play into their hands.

Axel

So I think Mixed will do great but I am worried about how well they will perform in brackets. I think all the UK mixed teams have shown they can beat each other, Eagles maybe being the strongest. But when missing a few key players at EUCF they looked a very different team. At WUCC those top players will need to rest at some point. But at the same time Eagles have a lot of strength and can push any team at the tournament.

All the teams in the UK on their day can push Eagles. So it could be a strong showing. But none of the teams show enough consistency for me to know that they'll do well. It's likely going to mean some brilliant days and some shockers at Worlds...

geegee

It’s also worth mentioning that SMOG are still relatively new as a Mixed team, they only committed to the division in 2016 and have crawled their way up the rankings to get to WUCC.

Axel

I'm also going to throw in now that a large portion of Glasgow’s guys played EUCF with the open team and large numbers of SMOG have played on other established teams, so they also have a fair amount of experience. Eagles and SMOG have the advantage in terms of Mixed experience, but the others aren't lacking in know-how.

Glasgow also have only been truly Mixed for 2 years. Before that was their Open focussed campaign where they finished 10th in their European debut. Compared to Open though where Chev and Clapham are always present, Mixed don’t have that.

Also having mentioned Deep Space earlier with all their strong players, what's up with their finishing places at all these tournaments? Weren't they touted to storm the Mixed Division last year...

nads

Axel do you think that’s what might lead to inconsistency?

geegee

Open has been a consistently strong division, I agree, however we can see how much Mixed has grown in recent years. On the international stage this could be our chance to really storm our way through.

Axel

Yup exactly Nads.

hazard

Time! Ali, drop some facts on us.

ali

Open - facts

Chevron now have biweekly trainings, split into Chev north & Chev south

Devon beat Chevy 12-11 in a recent friendly (although that wasn’t Chev’s final squad). Chevy also lost to Clapham on universe in that friendly.

What you could have said

Chev Euro results: 2017 – 13th; 2016 – 9th, 2015 – 8th

Last WUCC, Chevy did worse than EMO (17th and 15th respectively)

Devon came last at EUCF-W, only winning one game against the team who came 8th

Women’s – what you could have said

SYC has the longest serving coach in UK women’s ultimate (James Burbage), whereas Iceni lost their coach (Paul ‘Voodoo’ Waite) earlier this year.

SYC lost to Bristols at Tour 3 last year

SYC beat Iceni at Nationals

Iceni have lost some strong players

Mixed – what you could have said

Black Eagles only got a wildcard place for WUCC

BE finished 37th/48 at 2014 WUCC

SMOG came 25th overall at Mixed Tour 2015, so couldn't have entered Nationals with that team. They've entered Mixed Nationals every following year

hazard

Alright. Snap decisions for time. I've liked all the arguments. Nads, I don't think you managed to address the performance of the teams outside the UK, although I liked the arguments within the UK. Geegee, it was a good initial pitch, but didn't really see any defence or pushing back on some of their points.

I think Axel won it with the consistent strength argument in the end. So, 1 point to Axel currently.

hazard

Next debate. You may not believe it on how passionately they fought the last round, but all of our players are indeed going to WUCC in the Mixed division.

Who will be the breakout Mixed player at this year's WUCC?

Opening pitches, and we may allow a couple other players to be mentioned as we go.

nads

It has to be Ellie Taylor. Have you seen that girl....? Probably not, because she’s so damn quick! Not only does she have speed on her side but also experience from WU24s and is arguably one of the strongest girls on the Black Eagles side. I expect her to be making plays all week!

Axel

I'm not entirely sure what is meant by breakout, but I said Ali McNeil because he will be more important this year to his team than he has been to his teams before. He has played EUCF a few times I believe, went to U24s but has never been THE player on those teams. But the progression is strong. 10th at Euros with Glasgow. Made the Clapham (training?) squad, may have won EUCF with them? Now part of a Reading team that needs male athletes. That team can throw but Ali is definitely different to most of their players.

geegee

This was a really tough decision to make - Black Eagles’ Chris Habgood will be the breakout Mixed player at WUCC. Having played for University of Edinburgh who championed at Div 2 Nationals this year, GB U24 Open finishing 7th and now a pivotal player for Black Eagles, he is impressive to watch. I remember seeing the Open team playing in Perth - he played on a very injured hand still getting Ds, running super hard and his hand didn’t stop him. He’s always a threat playing against BE.

Axel

See I would argue Habs is established. It's not that much of a breakout if he has been touted to be a top top player for ages and led his uni side, everybody seeing he is their top player. Playing on BE and being important for a while. I love Habs and he is great but I dunno if this is a "breakout" as such. Whereas Ali wasn't considered THE player on his uni team (yes they were stronger than Edinburgh) but still.

Also YAS for every breakout player being based in Scotland for their uni years (and some club).

I also threw in Hayley as a breakout girl, but again same caveats as for Habs. Also a top performer for Women's U24s, uni team leader who finished top 5 at nats.

I also have nods to Iain "Toilet" Tait and Andrew Warnock to actually breakout. Rather than ex-U24s.

nads

His stats seem pretty impressive, I’m going to agree with Axel as he seems pretty established on the scene already.

geegee

He may be established in Scotland, but not necessarily in the UK. Many don’t actually know who he is if they are outside of the Scottish Ultimate scene, so he should be considered a breakout player.

nads

Although I’m not sure who he is.

Axel

He played U24s though....

geegee

As did Ali…

Axel

Agreed... hence my other two.

hazard

U24s is impressive, but I'm going to straight up admit I don't know all the players on those teams, and I follow Ultimate fairly closely. A good argument, not conclusive. Give me more.

nads

I think breakout can be defined in different ways I don’t necessarily think it needs to be a new kid on the block, it might be someone who doesn’t get mentioned a lot but always performed well... I put Lucy Hyde forward for this reason. She’s a pivotal member of the SMOG side, she’s difficult to mark and has incredible throws. Dominant on WU23 in 2016 and Newcastle Uni.

geegee

I agree with Nads, there are many that perform consistently well but get little credit because they don’t make so many “big plays”.

hazard

We've been mentioning a few people. Given what we've said, chose one player and give me a paragraph. Why we'll notice them, and why we haven't before.

Axel

I'm going to go with Warnock purely because he is a definite breakout player. Is a big grinder, can do anything and will be surprisingly important. Ali is a top shout for an established player to show how good he is to the rest of the field.

geegee

I’m going to stick with Habgood as my choice. But I also want to mention Katie Armstrong in this. She is still relatively unknown in Ultimate because she is somewhat new to the sport. She has played for Lacrosse for years and shows raw athleticism unlike most. Her defence is so difficult to manoeuvre from and I love it.

nads

Sticking with Ellie Taylor, she has all the assets of an incredible player, has led the Aberdeen Uni side and I think WUCC will be a chance for her to really shine.

hazard

Anyone want to give a quick shout for a breakout player in the other divisions while I consider?

nads

It has to be Andy Paterson for Devon Ultimate, he’s rapidly risen through the Devon ranks and is a strong asset on their O line (having joined them a year ago). He didn’t make WU24s and will show them what they missed out on.

hazard

Ok, making a ruling. When I made this question, I was thinking in terms of Will Rowledge in GB U23 2015, or Amelia Kenneth in 2017.

I think for that, I'm going to give it to Geegee for Chris Habgood. The fact that the Scottish are so aware who Habgood is, but even in the rest of the UK we aren't aware of him yet, shows he has that potential. Axel and Geegee both have one point.

Other good answers - I think Bella Tait is going to get a huge highlight reel block for BE, Tall Jamie Rabbetts is going to be noticed by everyone and hadn't really even played high level tour before this year, Andy Turner is a similar big player for SMOG (with a winning smile), and I did really like Nads's argument for Lucy Hyde - I think if you'd stuck with that you'd have got it.

Axel

Warnock got Juniors to change a chant from Wrexham to Glasgow, that's how big he is.

hazard

Right. Onto our final big topic -

What is the most major Gender Equity issue the UK currently needs to address?

Axel

Gender Equity is the process of allocating resources, programs and decision-making fairly to both males and females. This requires ensuring that everyone has access to a full range of opportunities to achieve the social, psychological and physical benefits that come from participating and leading in sport and physical activity. It does not necessarily mean making the same programs and facilities available to both males and females. Gender equity requires that girls and women be provided with a full range of activity and program choices that meet their needs, interests and experiences. Therefore, some activities may be the same as those offered to boys and men, some may be altered, and some may be altogether different.

Taking this into account, I think there is a lot that is going well for the movement in the UK. I also think there is a lot of interesting assignment of problems to gender if that makes sense.

Having said that the thing that will help the most in most grievances and therefore in my eyes the biggest issue will be placing even more effort on retaining women (maybe recruiting in some areas) when they begin playing and encouraging self development.

geegee

A topic that has started to gain a bit more traction in recent months, as fuelled by a fabulous GE talk run by UCL - the BUCS League system in UK University Ultimate. For those unaware Ultimate was introduced into the BUCS League in 2015, in which teams earn BUCS points the more successful they are in weekly regional scrimmages. This reaps benefits including points translating as funding for the Athletic Union, and those who play improve at a faster rate than without.

However BUCS is purely a Men’s league; women are not allowed to play at all. On one hand it is understandable that there isn’t a Women’s league for the sheer fact that there aren’t sufficient numbers to create a Women’s BUCS league. To therefore deny women any opportunity of taking part in what is an Open sport is against the rubric of the sport itself. Until then we have female athletes with reduced opportunities wishing to play at the same level as their peers, and few places to go. This leads to reduced player retention and often social division between BUCS players and non-BUCS players.

Many universities have already been connecting with local teams to provide women a platform to play competitive frisbee outside of university trainings, and there may be discussions of finding appropriate solutions to a seemingly unfair sports league from the UKU level. Si Hill has already noticed the frustrations many players are feeling, again brought to light by recent GE discussions, so a solution may arrive soon.

nads

I think there are lots of contributing factors to the GE issue, but I think the largest issue is opportunity. For a lot of women, they don’t have access to a Women’s team which makes playing and self development difficult, as Axel said. You can see areas where Women’s ultimate really grows due to opportunity, e.g. Nice Bristols, or Merseyside. I can attest to this by having been developed through Nice Bristols, if I didn’t have that opportunity then I wouldn’t be going back to WUCC a second time.

hazard

So, we have:

Retention and self-development during the initial stages of an Ultimate career. (Axel)

Reformation of the Women's Uni system. (Geegee)

Increase the range of places women have the opportunity to play and develop (Nads)

Axel

Geegee, in Scotland we had a question sent out to all unis asking whether they would want Women's BUCS and all but one answered no it isn't feasible. Just as a point I guess against the BUCS league. Obviously it'd be great if there was the player base and commitment for it, but most don't. That is the root issue.

Nads has a great point there, again I think that is hard until you have enough players. Which means areas that do recruit NEED to retain those players and some of them will naturally move to areas with less players and they can recruit or develop those that exist and/or form a new team.

geegee

The solution is not necessarily having a Women’s BUCS league - right now it just is not a viable option without the numbers. But to completely deny athletes the opportunity to play is quite frankly unfair.

Axel

But they do get to play... not week in week out, but they have the same structure as men had prior to the BUCS league...

If you want week in week out games then it's BUCS which as you say is probably not the immediate solution.

hazard

I think I would like a bit more (briefly) on how you would all tackle the issues you mentioned. Axel, how can we do more to help women in the early stages? Geegee, what would a more equitable uni structure look like? Nads, how do we go about increasing the number of places women have to take themselves to the next stage?

nads

There is a lot of responsibility and effort for women to start teams in new areas while still trying to develop themselves in the process. Unless you have a strong core to push a team then it can often be a struggle to keep it going, which falls back to Axel point on having enough players to start with.

Axel

Get them in responsibility roles early in training. Ask women who left why they stopped playing. Try target recruitment to athletic competitive girls as they often leave after uni as club is a bit intimidating. Bring them along to club training somehow that seems casual. Introduce them to gym programmes and more training sessions in a way that eases them in and isn't scary.

nads

I’m not sure it’ll happen, but I’d be interested to see a geo-based system in which you play for your local club rather than commute to play for a team (something I’m guilty of).

geegee

From the Gender Equity forum a few months back we discussed potential structures for a more equitable system such as eventually being able to form a Women’s league when viable, transitioning into an Open league so women can play alongside their male counterparts, or even making BUCS a Mixed league. It is fair to say that not all universities have suffered in player retention as compared to others as a result of a Men’s only system, but it has still discouraged women from playing with a team or even joining socially. We as a sport pride ourselves on further equity for gender, sexuality, race, religion, and disability, so we can always do more.

There was also discussion of joining university teams together to compete regionally on a regular basis from an anecdotal case in the US, whereby two high school teams joined together to compete and their participation grew dramatically.

hazard

Alright. Continue, but if you make a really good argument for someone else's point (e.g. a good thing for early development) I will, in this discussion only, count it in your favour.

geegee

I agree Nads that many women are falling behind in being able to train regularly as they are out of reach from certain teams. UKU has done well in aiding these women to find teams by creating the ‘Find a Team’ initiative, which has given women a platform to contact the most local team to them and begin regular training again.

nads

I agree with Axel in that we need to be more welcoming to women, give them a space they feel confident to perform in and I think the want for self development will stem from there. From here the need for opportunity is important. If you create a space women aren’t afraid to try new throws etc, the standard will improve and disparity in level should drop.

hazard

I'm closing it off there.

Geegee, I think yours is a very practical and worthy point that would have won over nearly any judge. However, you happen to be at the mercy of someone who hates the BUCS league with a burning passion, who believes it is actively toxic for the sport, that a league structure isn't all the great for development, and who is maybe just a little bit bitter at the fact his team won Div 2 and got relegated to Div 3.

So, that one is out. I'm sure the readers will think otherwise.

hazard

Between Axel and Nads - both very good points around the core issue of development.

I said I'd reward good points for both arguments, and with that I think Nads swayed me in the end by formulating the most things we need to think about. I do like Axel's list though, some very good points. You all have one point each, it comes down to this.

Ok. For time purposes I'm only doing one speed round question. The way this works - I post a question. You all post an answer first. If two people say the same answer, whoever puts it first wins that answer.

You have ninety seconds after the last answer is posted to make your case. Any answers after that time I won't count.

hazard

Your question is:

What is the most likely UK Women's team to beat Iceni this year?

geegee

SYC.

Axel

Bristols.

nads

Reading.

Axel

Bristols have the athleticism to hurt teams. They have the hunger with their youth. They could surprise and come out the blocks hard in one game and take it. Iceni will win more than they lose against them but one could swing Bristols’ way for sure

nads

Reading have strength and depth of squad to really hurt teams this year and have some of the strongest women in the UK. Pinching a couple of Iceni’s stronger players will help our cause too. Currently Reading are unknown and I think that may come as a shock to some teams.

(Not that I’m biased)

geegee

SYC have been edging on Iceni’s heels for years, and building up to the season where they can champion. They beat Iceni last year at Nationals during pool play to give a taste of what they’ve got. Iceni have lost a little bit of the depth they’ve had in previous years and that will hurt them.

hazard

Ok, we're at the end. I'm going to say Axel got that last one because I liked the specifics of why Bristols will win (athleticism and youth), although the SYC victory last year was  a very good argument. And obviously Reading are going to win tour in every division, so there is that.

Thank you all for taking part! Let me know if it's something you'd be keen to do again.

Well done to Axel for winning. Final score:
Axel: 2
nads: 1
geegee: 1

If you have any thoughts on this format, on any questions you'd liked to hear argued, or if you'd be keen to argue or chair in future, drop the TCLF page a line. Thanks again to Nads, Geegee and Axel, thanks to Ali for fact-checking the first question, and see you all around :)