Friendly Arguments #1: In which division will the UK do best at WUCC? + Breakout Mixed player, Gender Equity

Editors: ali/hazard

hazard

Hello and welcome to a new type of article here on The Cutting Lane Floor: Friendly Arguments. We have some very talented players and reasonably talented debaters here to try to convince you their argument is the correct one.

We'll have three initial longform rounds. The debaters all got these questions in advance, and have prepared their points. We'll be spending the majority of this article discussing these points.

After that, we have a speed round. I'll announce the question, they'll quickly try to claim the best answer, and then have a short time to try to argue it.

At the end of each round, we'll gather everyone up. I'll say what I liked, what I didn't like, and then give some points. Our fact checker will also make any corrections, and cover a few points our debaters may have missed. Your job as readers is to make your own conclusions, claim I'm biased in the comments, and argue for whichever debater you happen to know best.

All clear?

First up, let's introduce the people arguing today! Go ahead guys.

geegee

I’m Geegee. I’ve been playing for 3 and a half years, mostly with Surrey and more recently GB U24 Mixed. I’m playing with Reading at WUCC (super pumped), and I will also be commentating out in Cincinnati!

nads

Helllooo I’m Nads and I’ve been playing for around 6/7 years, I prefer not to count. I played for Nice Bristols during WUCC 2014 and I’m playing for Reading Ultimate for this cycle.  I apologise for my debating in advance.

Axel

Heya I'm Axel. I started 5 years ago with Glasgow Uni and have played with the club team since then as well as GB U24 Open. I'll be playing for GUX at WUCC!

ali

Hi everyone, I’m Ali Thomas of UKU Sofa Sideline fame. I’m an NQT (Nearly Qualified Teacher) and I’m here as a real time fact checker. If our debaters make any claims that are unsubstantiated or just plain wrong, I will inform them in a non-aggressive and constructive way that positively impacts our learning journeys.

hazard

Excellent! And I will be your chair. I've played a fair bit in Mixed and Open, and am also going to WUCC with Reading Mixed. I'll be keeping people in line, watching timings, and judging which arguments I think are the best. I'm going to try to be honest and explain my reasoning, so the outcomes don't seem random.

Well, with three WUCC players, it only seemed natural to start with a WUCC debate.

What I want you to decide on is:

In which division of WUCC will the UK perform best overall (e.g. Mixed, Open, Women’s)?

Opening statements please.

Axel

So personally I think Open will probably do the best. I'll start by saying why they are strong cos that's probably nicer than arguing why the others will be weaker.

So Clapham need no introductions. But for comparison's sake: longstanding force in the UK, not many rookies, strong recruitment, Euro champions many times. Yeah they are good. Chevron have looked strong going in this year. A couple of games at Fog Lane with perfect O and a lot of great defenders on that team. They looks stronger than previous years, though we say that a lot, but I think they'll put in a good placing at Worlds. Devon I don't know too much about for this year coming, I guess we will see more at tour, but they'll give anyone a gritty game no matter whether they are a top seed or a 16th seed, so expect lots of close results. I back them to get on the right side of most of them.

That's why Open will do the best.

Why the others won't?  Judging on the biggest tourney each year (EUCF) one Mixed team almost seems to shit out on the big stage. Hopefully it doesn't happen at WUCC, the teams look strong, but who knows. Reading will probably turn up as per though. Women's, I don't see the strength in depth being as strong as in the Open division, not as strong in EUCF (can't match Clapham’s winning streak); the dominance doesn't seem to be there on the continental scale, but obviously there are two powerhouse teams for sure. Let's see what they can do.

nads

It has to be Women’s, not that I’m biased by the teams I’ve played for in the past. I’ve seen how far the Women’s division has grown in the past 4 years in the UK and I know a lot of the girls rostered on the teams going to Worlds. Results at Tom’s Tourney were incredibly positive for all 3 teams. Iceni 2nd, SYC 4th and Nice Bristols 9th (losing to both SYC and Netherlands U20s in sudden death). Plus the girls on all teams are locally based to their clubs giving them the time to train together at least once or more a week. Speaking from a team I know very well and love (will definitely be fangirling them at WUCC) is Nice Bristols! They have experience retaining lots of the ladies from the 2014 cycle as well as some talented ladies from WU24s on top of  keeping their development heads on too! Judging by how strong I know this team will be, I think SYC and Iceni will be an equal force to match. I’m excited!

geegee

The UK Mixed scene has blossomed over the past few years to become a strongly competitive division. Where many players had previously committed to Women’s or Open, we have seen a transition from a multitude of top-level players competing in the Mixed division, whether it is for WUCC or National events. For example, the formation of Deep Space in London has drawn in players from the other two divisions e.g. Ben Weddell ex-Chevron, Harry Slinger-Thompson ex-Fire, Alex Meixner ex-Iceni, Mara Alperin ex-Iceni. Whilst Deep Space are not attending WUCC it gives an example for how many superb athletes are taking the Mixed division seriously. Black Eagles have dominated in the UK Ultimate scene over 2017 and 2018, even with split squads, and they could cause some damage on an international scale from sheer athleticism and throwing prowess. Reading have established themselves in the European game for years, winning championship titles at EUCF (2017 saw them finishing third with the highest finishing UK squad). With these titles under our Mixed belt, not even scratching the surface on SMOG and Glasgow, the UK has a good fight!

hazard

Ok. Some good initial arguments. Snap judgement - I think Axel currently has the strongest arguments in favour, so let's start by debating Open. He also got some good jabs in on the others initially, which I liked. Good arguments from both the others though. I liked Nads pointing out training perspectives and Geegee's use of Mixed within the UK beyond the WUCC teams.

nads

I can’t deny that Clapham are an incredibly strong team and yes are likely to match the results of 2014, they do seem untouchable on the UK and European front. Not that I don’t think Devon and Chevron are strong teams but if you look at past squads and performances of both Devon and Chevron again European teams they just can’t compete at the same level than Clapham can and I think we’ll see that disparity at WUCC. Importantly, Clapham train weekly, the other two don’t.

geegee

The UK undeniably has strength and has further developed in the run up to WUCC. However we don’t know how they will perform against teams outside of Europe. Clapham attended US Open Club Championships last year and finished 8th, which is a fantastic performance against some of the best US teams - is that going to be enough to perform at WUCC? Devon and Chevron have boosted their squads even compared to last year, so they could give Clapham a run for their money. On an international stage, there are teams that just seem to have a slight upper hand. I agree with Nads on the training consistency, it is vital on further pushing the squad.

Axel

I'm not arguing for Clapham to go and win WUCC, but I think they are likely to place highest from any UK team in their division. An 8th place finish at US Open with about as many wins and losses shows they can mix it with the best in the world, which should be enough to beat almost any team from any other country. I think we may see a disparity between Clapham and the other two, alternatively we may see a disparity between the top two and Devon. Who knows how strong Chevron will be come WUCC. But I'm sure those two will have much more depth than Devon and that will carry them further in the tournament.

Not sure there were any other major disagreements...

nads

I think Devon could be dark horses, they performed well at Tom’s and at Fog Lane with a split squad. I do think they’ll be interesting to watch.

Axel

All the better for my prediction mwahaha.

geegee

Chevron have already scrimmaged against the Devon WUCC squad, and came out on top at Fog Lane and Tom’s Tourney. Chev have expanded their roster and trained a significant amount more than previous years so they could give Clapham a scare. But Devon could also still surprise us. This is all too difficult to predict.

Axel

So you are saying Chev may be as strong as Clapham and Devon will surprise? I'm now happy with the division I chose!

geegee

Potentially, if there were to be a year for Chev to overtake Clapham it feels like it would be this year. Devon will perform better than expected. However, this does not mean better WUCC results because there are other teams there unfortunately (they kind of get in the way).

nads

I think on the international stage, upsets are likely. Clapham have that experience as Geegee pointed out. The others: we’ll see which teams come their way.

Axel

I think we say that a lot about Chev, but maybe! Anyways I stand by my prediction and good luck to them all!

Axel

I think the Women's division has condensed their talent into fewer squads than before, with Bristols hoarding a lot of young talent on the roster. Iceni, like Clapham, will most likely be the strongest UK team in their division given their experience. I probably don't know enough about SYC to speculate accurately. But wild speculation anyway - they are weaker than before? They'll come third of UK women's teams? No idea how they'll do at WUCC. Came 8th at EUCF so maybe I'm completely wrong.

nads

I disagree, if anything, the SYC squad has gotten stronger over the past few years, they have retained players and have built strong connections. They had a solid performance at Windmill in 2017 and Tom’s in 2018 showing they are a team to be reckoned with.

geegee

Women’s could go anywhere at this rate and it’s very difficult to call. But I have to agree with Axel - there is not as much depth comparatively, but not to Open, to other international Women’s teams. The UK boasts some incredible female athletes from all three of our representing teams, but they are all so different that it is difficult to call year to year who will perform best. SYC pride themselves on their grit and unity as a squad. Iceni have experience and raw athleticism to give them strength. Nice Bristols have a lot of youth and guts. On an international level, they have all often fallen short to teams that are just more well-rounded. I am really excited to see all of them face off against the US teams though!

Axel

You are probably right about SYC, like I said, I was just wildly commenting. However I think the strength of the teams isn't as strong relatively as Open on the international level. Due to less depth, less experience and less reputation. Trading off reputation can be important in long slogging games and points. Clapham have that to their advantage over any UK team.

nads

I do think there has been a shift in Women’s ultimate within the last year or so. The amount of teams entering Women’s Tour (28) is testament to that. I’m excited to see teams like Swift, SMOG, Reading and Hydra presenting a real threat to the 3 WUCC teams, helping to push their development in the last 6 weeks before Worlds.

geegee

I completely agree with Nads on that point, tour is going to be a great kick off to their season. It is often limiting when the top teams tend to play the same players every time and it becomes predictable. Maybe that’s why we’re seeing some split squads!

nads

I do have to agree with Geegee that the Mixed scene in the UK is so strong right now! All four teams are well rounded, but perhaps Black Eagles and Reading have the edge when it comes to seasoned experience against European teams. Women and Open have the benefit of having experienced international competition at WUCC before (NB, Iceni, Chevy and Clapham), whereas only BE have been to WUCC previously. This could be a disadvantage to the Mixed teams, or play into their hands.

Axel

So I think Mixed will do great but I am worried about how well they will perform in brackets. I think all the UK mixed teams have shown they can beat each other, Eagles maybe being the strongest. But when missing a few key players at EUCF they looked a very different team. At WUCC those top players will need to rest at some point. But at the same time Eagles have a lot of strength and can push any team at the tournament.

All the teams in the UK on their day can push Eagles. So it could be a strong showing. But none of the teams show enough consistency for me to know that they'll do well. It's likely going to mean some brilliant days and some shockers at Worlds...

geegee

It’s also worth mentioning that SMOG are still relatively new as a Mixed team, they only committed to the division in 2016 and have crawled their way up the rankings to get to WUCC.

Axel

I'm also going to throw in now that a large portion of Glasgow’s guys played EUCF with the open team and large numbers of SMOG have played on other established teams, so they also have a fair amount of experience. Eagles and SMOG have the advantage in terms of Mixed experience, but the others aren't lacking in know-how.

Glasgow also have only been truly Mixed for 2 years. Before that was their Open focussed campaign where they finished 10th in their European debut. Compared to Open though where Chev and Clapham are always present, Mixed don’t have that.

Also having mentioned Deep Space earlier with all their strong players, what's up with their finishing places at all these tournaments? Weren't they touted to storm the Mixed Division last year...

nads

Axel do you think that’s what might lead to inconsistency?

geegee

Open has been a consistently strong division, I agree, however we can see how much Mixed has grown in recent years. On the international stage this could be our chance to really storm our way through.

Axel

Yup exactly Nads.

hazard

Time! Ali, drop some facts on us.

ali

Open - facts

Chevron now have biweekly trainings, split into Chev north & Chev south

Devon beat Chevy 12-11 in a recent friendly (although that wasn’t Chev’s final squad). Chevy also lost to Clapham on universe in that friendly.

What you could have said

Chev Euro results: 2017 – 13th; 2016 – 9th, 2015 – 8th

Last WUCC, Chevy did worse than EMO (17th and 15th respectively)

Devon came last at EUCF-W, only winning one game against the team who came 8th

Women’s – what you could have said

SYC has the longest serving coach in UK women’s ultimate (James Burbage), whereas Iceni lost their coach (Paul ‘Voodoo’ Waite) earlier this year.

SYC lost to Bristols at Tour 3 last year

SYC beat Iceni at Nationals

Iceni have lost some strong players

Mixed – what you could have said

Black Eagles only got a wildcard place for WUCC

BE finished 37th/48 at 2014 WUCC

SMOG came 25th overall at Mixed Tour 2015, so couldn't have entered Nationals with that team. They've entered Mixed Nationals every following year

hazard

Alright. Snap decisions for time. I've liked all the arguments. Nads, I don't think you managed to address the performance of the teams outside the UK, although I liked the arguments within the UK. Geegee, it was a good initial pitch, but didn't really see any defence or pushing back on some of their points.

I think Axel won it with the consistent strength argument in the end. So, 1 point to Axel currently.

hazard

Next debate. You may not believe it on how passionately they fought the last round, but all of our players are indeed going to WUCC in the Mixed division.

Who will be the breakout Mixed player at this year's WUCC?

Opening pitches, and we may allow a couple other players to be mentioned as we go.

nads

It has to be Ellie Taylor. Have you seen that girl....? Probably not, because she’s so damn quick! Not only does she have speed on her side but also experience from WU24s and is arguably one of the strongest girls on the Black Eagles side. I expect her to be making plays all week!

Axel

I'm not entirely sure what is meant by breakout, but I said Ali McNeil because he will be more important this year to his team than he has been to his teams before. He has played EUCF a few times I believe, went to U24s but has never been THE player on those teams. But the progression is strong. 10th at Euros with Glasgow. Made the Clapham (training?) squad, may have won EUCF with them? Now part of a Reading team that needs male athletes. That team can throw but Ali is definitely different to most of their players.

geegee

This was a really tough decision to make - Black Eagles’ Chris Habgood will be the breakout Mixed player at WUCC. Having played for University of Edinburgh who championed at Div 2 Nationals this year, GB U24 Open finishing 7th and now a pivotal player for Black Eagles, he is impressive to watch. I remember seeing the Open team playing in Perth - he played on a very injured hand still getting Ds, running super hard and his hand didn’t stop him. He’s always a threat playing against BE.

Axel

See I would argue Habs is established. It's not that much of a breakout if he has been touted to be a top top player for ages and led his uni side, everybody seeing he is their top player. Playing on BE and being important for a while. I love Habs and he is great but I dunno if this is a "breakout" as such. Whereas Ali wasn't considered THE player on his uni team (yes they were stronger than Edinburgh) but still.

Also YAS for every breakout player being based in Scotland for their uni years (and some club).

I also threw in Hayley as a breakout girl, but again same caveats as for Habs. Also a top performer for Women's U24s, uni team leader who finished top 5 at nats.

I also have nods to Iain "Toilet" Tait and Andrew Warnock to actually breakout. Rather than ex-U24s.

nads

His stats seem pretty impressive, I’m going to agree with Axel as he seems pretty established on the scene already.

geegee

He may be established in Scotland, but not necessarily in the UK. Many don’t actually know who he is if they are outside of the Scottish Ultimate scene, so he should be considered a breakout player.

nads

Although I’m not sure who he is.

Axel

He played U24s though....

geegee

As did Ali…

Axel

Agreed... hence my other two.

hazard

U24s is impressive, but I'm going to straight up admit I don't know all the players on those teams, and I follow Ultimate fairly closely. A good argument, not conclusive. Give me more.

nads

I think breakout can be defined in different ways I don’t necessarily think it needs to be a new kid on the block, it might be someone who doesn’t get mentioned a lot but always performed well... I put Lucy Hyde forward for this reason. She’s a pivotal member of the SMOG side, she’s difficult to mark and has incredible throws. Dominant on WU23 in 2016 and Newcastle Uni.

geegee

I agree with Nads, there are many that perform consistently well but get little credit because they don’t make so many “big plays”.

hazard

We've been mentioning a few people. Given what we've said, chose one player and give me a paragraph. Why we'll notice them, and why we haven't before.

Axel

I'm going to go with Warnock purely because he is a definite breakout player. Is a big grinder, can do anything and will be surprisingly important. Ali is a top shout for an established player to show how good he is to the rest of the field.

geegee

I’m going to stick with Habgood as my choice. But I also want to mention Katie Armstrong in this. She is still relatively unknown in Ultimate because she is somewhat new to the sport. She has played for Lacrosse for years and shows raw athleticism unlike most. Her defence is so difficult to manoeuvre from and I love it.

nads

Sticking with Ellie Taylor, she has all the assets of an incredible player, has led the Aberdeen Uni side and I think WUCC will be a chance for her to really shine.

hazard

Anyone want to give a quick shout for a breakout player in the other divisions while I consider?

nads

It has to be Andy Paterson for Devon Ultimate, he’s rapidly risen through the Devon ranks and is a strong asset on their O line (having joined them a year ago). He didn’t make WU24s and will show them what they missed out on.

hazard

Ok, making a ruling. When I made this question, I was thinking in terms of Will Rowledge in GB U23 2015, or Amelia Kenneth in 2017.

I think for that, I'm going to give it to Geegee for Chris Habgood. The fact that the Scottish are so aware who Habgood is, but even in the rest of the UK we aren't aware of him yet, shows he has that potential. Axel and Geegee both have one point.

Other good answers - I think Bella Tait is going to get a huge highlight reel block for BE, Tall Jamie Rabbetts is going to be noticed by everyone and hadn't really even played high level tour before this year, Andy Turner is a similar big player for SMOG (with a winning smile), and I did really like Nads's argument for Lucy Hyde - I think if you'd stuck with that you'd have got it.

Axel

Warnock got Juniors to change a chant from Wrexham to Glasgow, that's how big he is.

hazard

Right. Onto our final big topic -

What is the most major Gender Equity issue the UK currently needs to address?

Axel

Gender Equity is the process of allocating resources, programs and decision-making fairly to both males and females. This requires ensuring that everyone has access to a full range of opportunities to achieve the social, psychological and physical benefits that come from participating and leading in sport and physical activity. It does not necessarily mean making the same programs and facilities available to both males and females. Gender equity requires that girls and women be provided with a full range of activity and program choices that meet their needs, interests and experiences. Therefore, some activities may be the same as those offered to boys and men, some may be altered, and some may be altogether different.

Taking this into account, I think there is a lot that is going well for the movement in the UK. I also think there is a lot of interesting assignment of problems to gender if that makes sense.

Having said that the thing that will help the most in most grievances and therefore in my eyes the biggest issue will be placing even more effort on retaining women (maybe recruiting in some areas) when they begin playing and encouraging self development.

geegee

A topic that has started to gain a bit more traction in recent months, as fuelled by a fabulous GE talk run by UCL - the BUCS League system in UK University Ultimate. For those unaware Ultimate was introduced into the BUCS League in 2015, in which teams earn BUCS points the more successful they are in weekly regional scrimmages. This reaps benefits including points translating as funding for the Athletic Union, and those who play improve at a faster rate than without.

However BUCS is purely a Men’s league; women are not allowed to play at all. On one hand it is understandable that there isn’t a Women’s league for the sheer fact that there aren’t sufficient numbers to create a Women’s BUCS league. To therefore deny women any opportunity of taking part in what is an Open sport is against the rubric of the sport itself. Until then we have female athletes with reduced opportunities wishing to play at the same level as their peers, and few places to go. This leads to reduced player retention and often social division between BUCS players and non-BUCS players.

Many universities have already been connecting with local teams to provide women a platform to play competitive frisbee outside of university trainings, and there may be discussions of finding appropriate solutions to a seemingly unfair sports league from the UKU level. Si Hill has already noticed the frustrations many players are feeling, again brought to light by recent GE discussions, so a solution may arrive soon.

nads

I think there are lots of contributing factors to the GE issue, but I think the largest issue is opportunity. For a lot of women, they don’t have access to a Women’s team which makes playing and self development difficult, as Axel said. You can see areas where Women’s ultimate really grows due to opportunity, e.g. Nice Bristols, or Merseyside. I can attest to this by having been developed through Nice Bristols, if I didn’t have that opportunity then I wouldn’t be going back to WUCC a second time.

hazard

So, we have:

Retention and self-development during the initial stages of an Ultimate career. (Axel)

Reformation of the Women's Uni system. (Geegee)

Increase the range of places women have the opportunity to play and develop (Nads)

Axel

Geegee, in Scotland we had a question sent out to all unis asking whether they would want Women's BUCS and all but one answered no it isn't feasible. Just as a point I guess against the BUCS league. Obviously it'd be great if there was the player base and commitment for it, but most don't. That is the root issue.

Nads has a great point there, again I think that is hard until you have enough players. Which means areas that do recruit NEED to retain those players and some of them will naturally move to areas with less players and they can recruit or develop those that exist and/or form a new team.

geegee

The solution is not necessarily having a Women’s BUCS league - right now it just is not a viable option without the numbers. But to completely deny athletes the opportunity to play is quite frankly unfair.

Axel

But they do get to play... not week in week out, but they have the same structure as men had prior to the BUCS league...

If you want week in week out games then it's BUCS which as you say is probably not the immediate solution.

hazard

I think I would like a bit more (briefly) on how you would all tackle the issues you mentioned. Axel, how can we do more to help women in the early stages? Geegee, what would a more equitable uni structure look like? Nads, how do we go about increasing the number of places women have to take themselves to the next stage?

nads

There is a lot of responsibility and effort for women to start teams in new areas while still trying to develop themselves in the process. Unless you have a strong core to push a team then it can often be a struggle to keep it going, which falls back to Axel point on having enough players to start with.

Axel

Get them in responsibility roles early in training. Ask women who left why they stopped playing. Try target recruitment to athletic competitive girls as they often leave after uni as club is a bit intimidating. Bring them along to club training somehow that seems casual. Introduce them to gym programmes and more training sessions in a way that eases them in and isn't scary.

nads

I’m not sure it’ll happen, but I’d be interested to see a geo-based system in which you play for your local club rather than commute to play for a team (something I’m guilty of).

geegee

From the Gender Equity forum a few months back we discussed potential structures for a more equitable system such as eventually being able to form a Women’s league when viable, transitioning into an Open league so women can play alongside their male counterparts, or even making BUCS a Mixed league. It is fair to say that not all universities have suffered in player retention as compared to others as a result of a Men’s only system, but it has still discouraged women from playing with a team or even joining socially. We as a sport pride ourselves on further equity for gender, sexuality, race, religion, and disability, so we can always do more.

There was also discussion of joining university teams together to compete regionally on a regular basis from an anecdotal case in the US, whereby two high school teams joined together to compete and their participation grew dramatically.

hazard

Alright. Continue, but if you make a really good argument for someone else's point (e.g. a good thing for early development) I will, in this discussion only, count it in your favour.

geegee

I agree Nads that many women are falling behind in being able to train regularly as they are out of reach from certain teams. UKU has done well in aiding these women to find teams by creating the ‘Find a Team’ initiative, which has given women a platform to contact the most local team to them and begin regular training again.

nads

I agree with Axel in that we need to be more welcoming to women, give them a space they feel confident to perform in and I think the want for self development will stem from there. From here the need for opportunity is important. If you create a space women aren’t afraid to try new throws etc, the standard will improve and disparity in level should drop.

hazard

I'm closing it off there.

Geegee, I think yours is a very practical and worthy point that would have won over nearly any judge. However, you happen to be at the mercy of someone who hates the BUCS league with a burning passion, who believes it is actively toxic for the sport, that a league structure isn't all the great for development, and who is maybe just a little bit bitter at the fact his team won Div 2 and got relegated to Div 3.

So, that one is out. I'm sure the readers will think otherwise.

hazard

Between Axel and Nads - both very good points around the core issue of development.

I said I'd reward good points for both arguments, and with that I think Nads swayed me in the end by formulating the most things we need to think about. I do like Axel's list though, some very good points. You all have one point each, it comes down to this.

Ok. For time purposes I'm only doing one speed round question. The way this works - I post a question. You all post an answer first. If two people say the same answer, whoever puts it first wins that answer.

You have ninety seconds after the last answer is posted to make your case. Any answers after that time I won't count.

hazard

Your question is:

What is the most likely UK Women's team to beat Iceni this year?

geegee

SYC.

Axel

Bristols.

nads

Reading.

Axel

Bristols have the athleticism to hurt teams. They have the hunger with their youth. They could surprise and come out the blocks hard in one game and take it. Iceni will win more than they lose against them but one could swing Bristols’ way for sure

nads

Reading have strength and depth of squad to really hurt teams this year and have some of the strongest women in the UK. Pinching a couple of Iceni’s stronger players will help our cause too. Currently Reading are unknown and I think that may come as a shock to some teams.

(Not that I’m biased)

geegee

SYC have been edging on Iceni’s heels for years, and building up to the season where they can champion. They beat Iceni last year at Nationals during pool play to give a taste of what they’ve got. Iceni have lost a little bit of the depth they’ve had in previous years and that will hurt them.

hazard

Ok, we're at the end. I'm going to say Axel got that last one because I liked the specifics of why Bristols will win (athleticism and youth), although the SYC victory last year was  a very good argument. And obviously Reading are going to win tour in every division, so there is that.

Thank you all for taking part! Let me know if it's something you'd be keen to do again.

Well done to Axel for winning. Final score:
Axel: 2
nads: 1
geegee: 1

If you have any thoughts on this format, on any questions you'd liked to hear argued, or if you'd be keen to argue or chair in future, drop the TCLF page a line. Thanks again to Nads, Geegee and Axel, thanks to Ali for fact-checking the first question, and see you all around :)

What Went Down At: Mixed Tour 3 2018

Editor/Chair: hazard (Reading A)
Contributors: Dylan Spiers (SMOG 1), Andy Moss (Thundering Herd 1), Katie Ackerley (SMOG 1), gyanhan (Birmingham)
Additional Contributions*: Megan Brass (Glasgow 1), Black Eagles Captains, Greg Mann (ExƎ), Alice Hanton (JR), hilmaniaa (LED)
*Those who sent quotes rather than taking part in the chat. Those with no access to the chat have been italicised.


Tour Headlines
Black Eagles win Tour decisively on the Sunday, claim joint-victory in overall Tour rankings.
Glasgow get historic Saturday win over Bleagles, claim second.
Reading and SMOG make a full WUCC top four with all teams sending non-split squads for the first time.
Mighty Hucks take fifth, and also joint-overall victory
Birmingham defy predictions, finish 6th
Deep Space bounce back from MT2 slump to take 7th

Bonus Topics
Who are our big underperformers/overperformers at Mixed Tour?
Are Black Eagles our top pick for WUCC?

What should the next GB cycle look like?

Links
tSG preview
Schedule
Spirit

Results

1. Black Eagles (Joint Tour winners)
2. Glasgow 1
3. Reading A
4. SMOG 1
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5. Mighty Hucks (Joint Tour winners)
6. Birmingham
7. Deep Space
8. ExƎ
9. Thundering Herd 1
10. Cambridge
11. Flat Perth
12. Rebel
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13. Guildford
14. Purple Cobras
15. SMOG 2 (Highest second team)
16. JR
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17. Thundering Herd 2
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44. Cambridge Ultimate 2 (Spirit winners)

***hazard
***A very small note at the start. I'm not going to be running/editing any chats for Open/Women's Tour. I'm very happy to facilitate and join in - but I'm only in the country for OWT1. We'll try to find other people, I'm just getting the excuses in in advance in case we don't. Thank you all for reading these, hope you enjoy!

hazard
Welcome to the MT3 chat! We're getting into the closing stages before WUCC (Worlds) now, with only two months to go. As such, this chat will be a whistle-stop Tour through the top teams, with some more general mixed chat at the end.

We saw all WUCC teams start to get close to full strength with their rosters, with Black Eagles, SMOG and Reading all combining into one top squad for this Tour - and not forgetting Glasgow (who would do that?) who entered close to a full strength team to MT2 as well.

Let's start in pool A: Reading, SMOG, Might Hucks and Thundering Herd. Mighty Hucks have been the strongest non-WUCC team so far, and so I think they've merited an early mention.

Dylan Spiers
A really solid team, bringing one of the largest squads I've seen them with (mainly more men). Having Connor McHale for the show game was obviously a big boost, he came up huge more than once

hazard
He certainly did, but I have to say in my opinion getting Merrick Cardew as a pick up for the full weekend may have been more of a boost (as opposed to Connor for a game). A very solid, experienced player, who was able to bring down a few amazing grabs himself.

Andy Moss
Yep they are a great group of players. Probably suffered a bit in terms of numbers during games on Saturday against other much larger squads. But bounced back from coming fourth in the pool in their Sunday games.  Herd had a 12-7 win over them on the Saturday, where I think they got pretty frustrated with what wasn't working for them. They started strong, but actually didn't take many many of the long shots seen in their other games, and made a fair few overthrows when they did. The 10 ladies Herd had also helped and they were playing 4 women as much as possible.

gyanhan
Hucks have a really solid deep game, when we played them in the 5v6 final the Joe-Rollo/any male connection was rather unstoppable. Whether it was a early stall huck or a last minute release valve, they brought it down more often than not. But while they seemed almost unbeatable in the earlier Tours, they didn't seem as much this Tour. Brum gave them a really good, close game, and started off with a 3-1 lead even before the score went back to serve

hazard
I'm going to end with one final thing I think still separates Hucks from the level of the WUCC non-split squads. They need some more women. Those they do have are still capable, but it is clear that teams are taking advantage of the fatigue in their later games. I think this is true across all Tours, at least from my perspective. With that said, well done Mighty Hucks in sharing the Mixed Tour title, and good luck to the Hucks players playing Worlds on their own with various teams.

Mighty Hucks elevated themselves to a (joint) Mixed Tour title this year
Photo by Andrew Moss for the ShowGame

hazard
We'll move up based on finishing position. Let's find out about how SMOG's weekend went.

Dylan Spiers
Glad that we fended off the non-worlds teams and had some great games against other worlds teams it was a shame that we didn't come out with wins in our two games against Reading and semi vs Glasgow.

We were missing two of our main O line handlers in captain Alexis Long to uni exams and Tom Lees (yellow) to injury. I think this made it really tough in some of the games as extra pressure was placed on the remaining players having to step into new roles on the fly

hazard
I would say not having Rachel Turton until Sunday may have made an impact too - the Reading vs SMOG Saturday game swung on some quite sharp momentum shifts.

Dylan Spiers
I think Reading went on a 4 point D roll at one point being completed with a layout Callahan! I think that with a few more O line legs the bleeding would have been stopped much sooner

hazard
As someone who isn't the biggest fan of having O and D lines, I will certainly concede that point.

Dylan Spiers
we are learning all the time how to use our large squad to its fullest and that game was certainly a very useful experience that is hopefully going to help us later in the season

Katie Ackerley
It definitely gave us something to think about. In our games on Sunday we adapted a lot quicker so I'm actually quite glad it happened when it did.

hazard
Any final thoughts on what adaptations to make before Worlds?

Katie Ackerley
You'll have to ask the captains about that one. I'm sure they've been talking a lot. But I'm sure getting our missing O line handlers back (as well as the huge D line players we were missing) will change a lot. I'm not worried.

hazard
Onto Reading (A)! I believe the only WUCC squad with their entire team there, albeit with injuries. We had one really educational loss against Black Eagles, but apart from that a successful weekend. Many hard fought games, practice at both coming from behind and defending leads, and also lots of positives in our play (including Erin McGready scoring a game-winning sudden-death Callahan vs Mighty Hucks). The rock-hard ground and some pre-existing niggles did lead to a bit more of an injury list than we would like though.

I think the measure of our success can be seen by our dispatching of Thundering Herd. They are a good team which played well, and we felt like we never let them get into the game.
With that said, I would really have liked a game against Glasgow. They earned second-place with a Saturday win over Black Eagles and a semi-final win vs SMOG.

Andy Moss
I didn't touch the disc during Herd's game against Reading :sweat_smile: think you only gave our D line two or three chances and I wasn't on the pitch for one of them. Avril played great that game - we couldn't really stop her scoring.

hazard
In MT2, Glasgow found themselves up against a Black Eagles side in the semi-final, but were unable to close it out. Here in Cheltenham, we had a similar situation, but Glasgow held on against a four-point Bleagles comeback to take the game. A little bit of a reflection of the small squad Glasgow have, but they seemed to have gelled very quickly as a side.

Glasgow may have a small squad, but they can still get up tall.
Photo by Andrew Moss for the ShowGame

Megan Brass
The weekend was great for Glasgow. We went down with just 15 players from our worlds squad, with a few key players missing, but that didn’t stop us from turning up and really showing what we can do. We went up early on in our first game against Black Eagles and I think the energy that brought to the team is what carried us all the way through for the win. Mentality is something which sometimes causes us difficulty on the pitch, especially when we’re nearing the end of a match, but even when Bleagles took the game to universe we kept our cool, which felt like a great achievement for us. I could say a similar thing about the flat Perth game as well - we went a few points down at the start of that one, but managed to fight back for the win in the end. 

A semi with smog on Sunday morning felt like a familiar fate after last year. It was a brilliant game to play, and I think both teams wanted it as much as each other. It was probably our best game of the weekend, we managed to nail some of the structures we’ve been training all season. And winning it felt extra special (I won’t call it revenge.....). 

Dylan Spiers
It was a really intense game and they played really aggressively all the way through, I am not sure if the legs got the better of them by the final but they certainly put a shift in the semi. Their offence was very stoic in the face of a lot of different defensive looks we threw at them with breaks coming at a real premium

Megan Brass

To be honest we didn’t really show up in the final, and black eagles really did. Huge credit to them for managing to remain as dominant as ever even when they’re missing a lot of their more experienced players. It was really great to prove that we deserved that top 4 spot at Tour 2 despite only getting through on point difference, and our spot at WUCC despite the late bid. I think we really showed that we are competing on a level with the likes of black eagles and smog, and knowing that we are able to beat them will do wonders for our confidence too. I think the weekend has made us really hyped for heading to America (at least it has for me). Knowing we can only improve over the next few weeks it’s going to be exciting to see how we’ll match up against the rest of the world.

hazard
Finally, Black Eagles. Following their Sunday performance, I think we can say deserved winners of MT3. The Black Eagles captains sent us this:
We started the weekend slowly against GUX. The first half was not up to the standard we expect. They capitalised on this and were a lot more clinical.

From that point onwards we were very pleased with our performance, intense D and composed O.

It was a young money inexperienced squad playing this weekend with 12 players missing from our WUCC team. Full squad back together next weekend at Talampaya which we're using as our main warmup for worlds.

No one could touch Black Eagles when they got into their groove on Sunday.
Photo by Alice Hanton for the ShowGame

hazard
Matching up against them in the semi was intimidating. When Cameron Agnew (a fairly respectable threat on all parts of the field) is their shortest male player, it was not unexpected that they roasted us long and high for a lot of the game. I think the relatively calm conditions of Cheltenham may have helped them though. I'm not saying they couldn't have played their game in stronger winds, just that they became near unstoppable with the way things were.

Would people say, given their strong Tour performances, Black Eagles are the most promising British prospect (in mixed) at this stage for WUCC?

gyanhan
Looks like it, if half their squad are missing yet they still win comfortably, they're only going to be stronger at WUCC

Dylan Spiers
Very true, although perhaps their performance at euros last year is a little bit of a warning as they didn't really make an impression despite having a dominant domestic season

hazard
I would agree with Dylan - I've yet to see them prove themselves beyond the British stage.

This is not to say they can't - I think they've been missing a couple players each time at EUCF, and have definitely come on from their 2014 squad in terms of ability and experience. Just that we haven't seen it yet - and internationally there's quite a few different styles of Ultimate we don't see as much in the UK. If they do well at Talampaya then consider any reservation I have withdrawn.

Dylan Spiers
Exactly, these top teams have played each other countless times and so it is hard to read too much into results. I am looking forward to seeing results of Talampaya and Windmill which will really give an idea of how the teams are going to perform at worlds.

Can Black Eagles take on the World in the same way they took on the UK?
Photo by Alice Hanton for the ShowGame

hazard
Ok, back to the UK for a second, and I think it would be unfair not to mention Birmingham. A very successful MT3 to wrap off a very good overall season.

gyanhan
We won our pool quite comfortably to play the seeding game against Rebel. It's nice to play a non-UK team and Rebel were certainly very good and difficult to turn.

hazard
I was quite sad to see Ireland don't seem to be sending a mixed team to WUCC, but it's great to see Rebel over here all the same.

gyanhan
We played the 6v11 cross up against Herd 1 in a rematch of our cross at MT2 and we won again, starting off strong to take a huge lead and that was a nice cushion throughout the rest of the game.
It only shows how much Birmingham deserve to really be in the top 8, and I was sorely disappointed when we were seeded outside of the top 8 so we couldn't take a crack at the WUCC teams.

The 6v7 against Deep Space was close, we spent the whole game chasing till 10-10, and won on universe. While we struggled at first to stop their really slick offense, the defensive pressure just kept building and we got the turns we wanted. The final 5v6 against Hucks was similarly close, we started strongly but unfortunately a couple of miscues gave them the breaks they needed to secure their lead again. We ran our offense largely through our women but a few well timed poaches from their men got the blocks. Nonetheless it was a great effort by Brum, and shows again how well we can hang with the top teams.

I believe this was the most successful Mixed Tour run Birmingham has had, and hopefully this puts us in good stead to be seeded in the top 8 at the start of the next mixed season, rather than have to keep crossing up into it .

hazard
I believe that's true. Even the year Brum won Mixed Nationals (2014) they didn't have as successful a Tour season. Signs of good things to come.

Now, who do we think were the over/underperformers at Tour?

hazard
I'm going to start with ExƎ. A surprise top 8 finisher at MT3 (with a decent MT1 too), captain Greg Mann gave me the lowdown

ExƎ is a team of Exeter grads (or soon to be) that entered mixed this year with the aim of finishing top 20. After MT1 we realised we could compete on the same level as the established names in the mixed game. Going into MT3 our motto for the weekend was: ‘Good basics, good choices’. Playing the athletic style of game you’d expect from a team with roots in Devon and sticking with this motto allowed us to take some big scalps over the weekend, the most notable of which was Cambridge. I’m particularly proud of the way the team played against Cambridge, after trading out the first half (starting on D), at half we reaffirmed our focus for the weekend and put Cambridge to the sword in the second half winning it 8-1.

Dylan Spiers
I'm gonna jump in with SMOG 2, they have had a huge season finishing Tour 3 once again as the highest second team

hazard
SMOG 2 certainly did well, but I think we have to say a successful Tour for second teams in general! Herd 2 finished higher this year than last year, and Reading 2 faced off against them in a thrilling "plate" final (17 vs 18). Glasgow 2 have been holding their own against some good teams too.

Dylan Spiers
It is great that clubs going to worlds have still been able to focus on developing the next generation. it will be interesting to see how these clubs take on Open and Women's Tour

They may be second teams, but don't count them out - Reading 2 vs Thundering Herd 2 was a well fought 17 vs 18 game.
Photo by Andrew Moss for the ShowGame

hazard
Were it not for their MT3 performance, I think I would have put Deep Space in underperformers. Coming 7th here earns them enough credit to avoid that title though, in my opinion. Excited to see if they can build further. Guildford and Cambridge are other clubs who seemed to have built up successfully this year. Otherwise, Curve sending three clubs and LLLeeds doing decently on a long-awaited return to Mixed Tour round off my list. Finally, I got sent this by LED, who have had a really impressive season as one of the youngest clubs in Tour.

hillmaniaa
Being a uni team we really appreciated the lack of wind as we could really rely on running around and having solid structure rather than having to come down with 50/50s. We had a really great start against York and BAF where the guys stayed patient and we torpedoed our offence through our girls. This was only LED’s second year at Mixed Tour and we’re really proud of how we utilised our women and can’t wait to see how that progresses to uni next year and beyond. We stayed up late and came out slow against a solid Reading 2 team. The great thing about that game was that we knew that everything we were doing was right, we just played a bit pants. Lots to look forward to from the LED camp.

Dylan Spiers
I think I would add JR have to be in the underperformer category, they were a top 8 team last season but dropped away a bit this year

hazard
I would agree with JR, but I think the reason for that is fairly clear they put a lot into trying to qualify for WUCC last year, and so took a bit of a more relaxed approach this year. With that in mind, their MT1 performance is still quite impressive to me.

Alice Hanton
While ideally we'd have finished higher, JR had a really fun weekend (and Tour season). As you said, last season was big for us with eyes on WUCC qualification, so taking a less serious attitude this year. We had several slow starts to games this weekend where we only really showed up in the second half: better pre-game preparation could probably sort this out, but again, this is a relaxed year for us. We had especially good games (and wins) against LLLeeds and Purple Cobras, although a round robin 3-way-tie put us below Cobras in the final standings.

hazard
I feel Cosmic Manatees, Brighton, and Black Sheep all slipped a little this year. Many potential reasons (people leaving, alternate focuses, etc.), but I think the results show that this year wasn't as successful as last year for them.

One final question I'm going to float - and if anyone reading this article is interested in making this into a more full chat, let me know as I'm happy to mediate it.

What should the GB cycle look like next year? Last year's Men's team took a very London-centric approach, while the Mixed/Women's teams were a bit broader. Is there enough Scottish talent to justify a more localised GB team? Or maybe only slightly localised (i.e. a Northern one to take in SMOG?). Or should we be trying to take the best of all talent in the UK, with the possible result of fewer trainings?

Dylan Spiers
I definitely think that the top mixed teams should be heavily represented. The level of mixed in the UK has been really pushed recently as it has come into its own with more and more top players prioritising it over the single gender divisions.
Taking clumps from each of the worlds team would give a huge head start in terms of in built connections rather than trying to squish together a group of all stars.

hazard
I certainly think the Scottish teams have done well enough to justify this question being asked. My personal thoughts would be a potential split approach - a very clear north and south pod which come together for some group trainings, but train regularly together locally. In my eyes there is a bit of a midlands gap in mixed (Birmingham aside) which would justify this approach. Having some development players in each pod to boost numbers would also add some outreach.

Dylan Spiers
As long as North is actual north not just "above Birmingham". tbh should probably actually just be in Scotland

hazard
North of England starts at Sheffield. Come at me Internet. Meeting people at my uni who considered Oxford as the north genuinely scarred me.

Alright, I'm closing this off now with a final question I like to ask. If you were to pick an all-star line (top four men and top four women from any teams), who would you pick?

My line:
Women: Tessa Hunt (SMOG), Ania Godbold (Reading), Avril Hunter (Reading), Katie Flight (Glasgow)

Men: Rollo Sax Dixon (Hucks), Mike Noblett (Black Eagles),  Cameron Agnew (Black Eagles), Shaun Webb (Glagow)

Dylan Spiers
I pretty much entirely agree with you except I think Bleagles women deserve some representing so I would add maybe Lucy Barnes instead of one of the Reading women. I would also have Tom Bennett (SMOG) in there, just because him and Tessa are too good a connection to miss out on

hazard
I might agree with you, but Black Eagles squad is so well rounded I actually had trouble picking out anyone in particular. I do think Black Eagles tended to use their men a bit more this weekend (and Reading use their women more), which is a personal perspective but reflected in my picks. Although Bella Tait of Bleagles would make it if I was just picking a D line rather than a generic line, as I thought she was very tough for people to play against.